00:00:00: >> Now as the heat wave gripping the Mediterranean continues

00:00:08: some more than 100 people 120 people have died and hundreds

00:00:12: more still missing temperatures have been at or above 110

00:00:16: degrees for 27 intense and deadly storms ripping through the

00:00:20: middle of the country killing it was 180 people that killed

00:00:24: due to record amounts of rain most right now the temperature

00:00:26: is about 15 degrees above the average temperature for

00:00:30: another 22,000 people in displaced scientists say the

00:00:34: extreme weather is happening more often because of human

00:00:37: cause climate change but the ultimate driving factor is

00:00:41: human induced climate change that causes the weather

00:00:44: patterns that we see today.

00:00:46: >> Welcome to heat beyond 1.5.

00:00:56: Your podcast exploring the pressing challenges of the

00:00:58: climate crisis and the innovative solutions driving

00:01:01: our response.

00:01:02: We dive into how technology entrepreneurship and

00:01:06: resilient strategies are helping us adapt to a rapidly

00:01:09: changing world.

00:01:10: Join us as we uncover the tools and ideas shaping our

00:01:14: future in the face of climate uncertainty with your hosts

00:01:18: Nicholas Samios managing partner at PT one and David

00:01:23: Gordman managing director at DWR eco.

00:01:26: >> Hello everybody back to recap last episode we have

00:01:31: talked about the role of infrastructure climate change

00:01:35: action and in today's episode we want to look at a specific

00:01:39: issue in climate adaptation.

00:01:40: Namely climate change resilience and disaster

00:01:45: management. The focus of disaster management is

00:01:48: shifting from crisis response to prevention and

00:01:51: preparedness. The European Union is working to integrate

00:01:55: climate change considerations into disaster response

00:01:59: building more resilient infrastructure and communities

00:02:03: and the European Union's civil protection mechanism helps

00:02:08: to improve the coordination and support of disaster

00:02:11: response. So early warning systems the preparedness of

00:02:14: disasters etc. Is the main topic here of today's episode

00:02:20: and I'm going to talk about this with our guest Julia

00:02:24: Stewart David and she's advisor for climate change and

00:02:28: resilience at the European Commission's directorate

00:02:32: general for European civil protection and humanitarian

00:02:36: aid operations.

00:02:38: In short DG a core.

00:02:40: And my name is David warm.

00:02:43: >> The challenge.

00:02:47: >> Hi Julia it's really great to have you here on the show

00:02:50: and just to kick off the conversation could you

00:02:52: explain us and the audience what you and of course

00:02:55: European Commission and eco is doing your department.

00:03:01: >> Thanks a lot. Yes. So I've worked for many years for the

00:03:05: department that deals with disasters. We deal with

00:03:08: disasters in Europe and also globally and what we call

00:03:13: humanitarian aid often in conflict related situations.

00:03:18: >> For today's discussion of course I'd like to zoom in on

00:03:20: the climate extremes and what climate change is doing to the

00:03:25: world of disasters.

00:03:26: We have operational work and we have policy work so helping

00:03:33: the EU governments to develop their systems to protect

00:03:38: their citizens in the face of disasters. I'd like to dig into

00:03:43: that maybe in the rest of the discussion in particular about

00:03:45: how we help coordinate and the kind of response elements

00:03:49: that we have available.

00:03:51: >> Sure and maybe as well before we do a little bit more

00:03:56: deep dive you can explain us what climate change

00:04:01: adaption means in the context of disaster management and

00:04:04: resilience.

00:04:05: >> Sure. So disaster management more broadly is about any kind

00:04:12: of hazard. So to give a non climate related example we of

00:04:18: course work on something like volcanic eruptions.

00:04:20: However the majority of disasters that we are dealing

00:04:27: with day in day out in the European context in particular

00:04:31: are related to climate extremes.

00:04:33: Floods and wildfires being the two most known examples.

00:04:40: So increasingly we see that work that we do for countries to be

00:04:46: better prepared for any kind of emergency needs to be

00:04:50: accelerated and to adapt to the trend that we are seeing in

00:04:56: relation to climate.

00:04:57: It's very clear that climate change is leading to increased

00:05:05: frequency and extremes of weather related disasters and we've

00:05:10: seen this only this week unfortunately in Spain in

00:05:14: Valencia.

00:05:15: >> Yes is it from your point of view quite easy or probably one

00:05:21: of the main objectives to anticipate where disasters are

00:05:26: going to happen or is this something where you are still

00:05:31: very much surprised where things are going to occur.

00:05:35: >> So I think the key thing particularly this week to talk

00:05:40: about is that disasters are occurring everywhere and with

00:05:44: more frequency.

00:05:45: This we have seen as an accelerating trend over the

00:05:51: past few years and in particular the last two years

00:05:56: already.

00:05:59: This means that for the citizens in the European Union very

00:06:03: many people have now actually experienced already some kind

00:06:07: of natural event that has led to a disaster.

00:06:10: Now I'm careful with my words because disasters you asked me

00:06:14: can you predict and we'll go on no doubt to talk about

00:06:19: forecasting and warning and monitoring of certain kinds of

00:06:24: weather extremes.

00:06:25: But disasters will happen where that impacts either people,

00:06:30: society, infrastructure and there are many things we can do to

00:06:35: better prepare for the disasters that may hit.

00:06:39: >> Yes and when has this shift actually towards prevention,

00:06:44: resilience, evolved particularly in the EU now because I could

00:06:49: imagine that this has not been always the focus right.

00:06:52: >> Okay so let me go back a decade or so, a couple of

00:06:57: decades and talk a little bit about something specific that

00:07:00: you mentioned earlier the Union Civil Protection Mechanism.

00:07:02: So each of our EU member states has the primary

00:07:07: responsibility of course for managing the disasters in their

00:07:10: countries.

00:07:11: But what we know from experience is that at times

00:07:16: countries can be overwhelmed by the scale of a disaster.

00:07:20: Or it might be a type of disaster that is relatively rare.

00:07:26: And so the European Union has come in with a role to

00:07:31: coordinate and to provide additional support when a

00:07:36: country requests assistance.

00:07:39: It's a solidarity mechanism.

00:07:41: It means that support can come from one EU member state to

00:07:46: another country that is asking for it.

00:07:49: So this is the response side typically that we see.

00:07:55: And that is perhaps where disasters are most visible to

00:08:02: people and certainly most often reported in the media.

00:08:05: But way before that happens there are many things that

00:08:10: disaster risk managers need to do to prevent and prepare

00:08:16: for disasters.

00:08:18: And I'm going to talk a little bit about what we sometimes

00:08:22: call a cycle.

00:08:24: So being aware of the risks, being aware of the context

00:08:31: that a disaster may strike in.

00:08:33: So the risk assessment phase.

00:08:37: Then there are actions you can take to prevent the impacts

00:08:42: of the disasters.

00:08:45: And then the preparedness for if a disaster does strike.

00:08:49: All of that ahead of any kind of response.

00:08:53: And what we're increasingly seeing over the last few

00:08:56: years with the climate extremes is actually all of these

00:08:59: elements come together.

00:09:00: It's not a perfect circle.

00:09:04: We need to be preparing and preventing at every single stage.

00:09:10: So I can talk a little bit more about the triggers for better

00:09:17: investment in disaster prevention.

00:09:20: That would be good.

00:09:21: But maybe you can also give us a little bit the figures around

00:09:25: that.

00:09:26: I mean, how has this developed?

00:09:28: And maybe is this adequate to the amount of disasters

00:09:33: which are happening?

00:09:34: So have disasters actually the kind and the magnitude and the

00:09:40: pure quantity has this also been increased over the years

00:09:44: therefore also demanding more funding?

00:09:47: Yes, certainly.

00:09:48: So the estimates on the damage to the global economy as a

00:09:55: result of extreme weather are extremely alarming.

00:10:00: I think this week we've seen a report of over two trillion

00:10:06: dollars worth of extreme weather economic damage over the past

00:10:11: decade, but with a 20% increase.

00:10:14: In the last couple of years we've seen extremes in the European

00:10:18: Union with unprecedented spikes in the kind of damage being

00:10:22: done by disasters.

00:10:23: In 2021 alone, 63 billion euros worth of damage was recorded.

00:10:31: Of course, we've had the huge floods this year in that year in

00:10:35: Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands.

00:10:36: And then in 2022 again, 56 billion euros worth of damage

00:10:42: done from disasters.

00:10:44: So why do we account for disaster losses?

00:10:47: Well, obviously in the end this is the impact on businesses,

00:10:51: houses, families, societies.

00:10:53: It's not necessarily the reflection of the loss of life.

00:10:57: In terms of the climate extremes, the most deadly disasters

00:11:02: are the heatwaves responsible for 95% of the fatalities on

00:11:09: weather-related extremes in Europe.

00:11:10: Now, that sounds very gloomy news, but you asked me about the

00:11:16: trends and what we do know is that there is a very positive

00:11:21: case for making an investment in disaster preparedness and

00:11:25: disaster prevention.

00:11:26: We have seen, and I think the best example I can give you is

00:11:33: the huge efforts that were made in Portugal, for example,

00:11:37: down to a very local level in terms of preventing wildfires.

00:11:42: Wildfires occur and have occurred in the southern parts of

00:11:48: Europe for many years.

00:11:49: But year after year now with the extreme heat, we're also

00:11:55: seeing a growth in the number of wildfires.

00:12:02: But we're getting better at preventing an early intervention,

00:12:05: so the limitation of the damage is coming down.

00:12:10: We've seen in the case of the floods that we mentioned both

00:12:14: in central Europe and in northern Europe, that measures

00:12:19: which support so-called nature-based solutions, so

00:12:24: planning that includes floodplains and other areas and other

00:12:32: ways, natural ways of water evacuating already pay dividends.

00:12:38: So disaster preparedness is not just the cost, preventing the

00:12:45: costs of the damage, but it's also bringing positive benefits

00:12:49: to society.

00:12:51: Right, and prevention, there is no glory in this.

00:12:55: This is one of the sayings people are saying.

00:12:57: How easy is it for you to raise the necessary funds around

00:13:03: prevention, which eventually helps us to lower the costs around

00:13:07: the exact disaster management?

00:13:10: Or is it easier for you to raise money based on the next

00:13:16: disasters?

00:13:16: That's a very interesting question.

00:13:20: I think it's not for the European Union, we have a budget

00:13:23: which complements the action taken by the member states.

00:13:27: And so we provide this additional support to both capacities

00:13:31: and to specific actions and projects which support disaster

00:13:37: prevention.

00:13:38: It's not an either/or, but what is clear is that as we face more

00:13:44: and more disasters globally and in Europe, the cost of the

00:13:49: responding is raising simply because of the frequency of the

00:13:54: disasters.

00:13:55: And therefore what we need to do on the prevention side is to

00:14:00: make sure that disaster prevention measures and disaster

00:14:05: risk measures are mainstreamed into all other kinds of funding

00:14:12: that's available.

00:14:13: And that includes of course things like agricultural and

00:14:17: rural development and urban funding.

00:14:20: It includes things like support to the different regions of the

00:14:26: European Union.

00:14:27: And so that is where we find the budget for prevention of

00:14:33: disasters.

00:14:34: That said, you mentioned it.

00:14:37: Prevention is long-term localized investment.

00:14:43: It's something you keep doing and it's something where in some

00:14:48: ways you don't see the success.

00:14:50: So if we take one area where there's been a very noticeable

00:14:55: improvement over the decades, which is disasters at sea,

00:14:59: there have been huge efforts to reduce the risks of at-sea

00:15:06: disasters, including through legislation, including through

00:15:11: standard setting, including through regional agreements with

00:15:16: countries working together.

00:15:18: And actually we have fewer and fewer at-sea disasters.

00:15:22: But it doesn't make the news, of course.

00:15:25: Sure.

00:15:25: And what are the typical measurements, instruments,

00:15:31: maybe even technologies or infrastructures for prevention

00:15:37: of disasters?

00:15:39: Okay, so then we have to talk about what kind of disaster and

00:15:44: where the disaster takes place.

00:15:46: So let me give you an example.

00:15:48: When we talk about wildfires, we are, of course, often talking

00:15:54: about highly forested areas.

00:15:56: But the type of forest in Europe will vary whether we're

00:16:00: talking about southern Europe or, for example, in Sweden,

00:16:03: where we had some very big forest fires a number of years ago.

00:16:07: So the techniques and the approaches may need to also

00:16:12: shift depending where we're talking about.

00:16:14: Where the disaster starts to impact society will be, of course,

00:16:20: two levels there.

00:16:21: One is where it reaches housing.

00:16:24: It reaches critical infrastructure.

00:16:26: It reaches, for example, rail and electricity lines.

00:16:30: Another area would be the cost to farming, to livestock,

00:16:36: to nature itself.

00:16:37: So the kind of measures we're talking about in prevention will

00:16:42: really depend on what kind of disasters we're talking about

00:16:47: and on where they're taking place.

00:16:52: But we will always need to involve nature and planning

00:16:58: and what we know about the cycle of the disasters, the hazards.

00:17:06: In that process.

00:17:07: And you were mentioning some examples like wildfires,

00:17:11: or wildfires, floods, etc.

00:17:13: Are there just a different shade here as well?

00:17:16: We've talked a lot about and hear about disasters caused

00:17:21: by climate change.

00:17:22: But is there anything we need to separate conceptually

00:17:27: from other disasters where you are also responsible for?

00:17:30: Not to get everyone the impression that every disaster

00:17:34: has its root cause in climate change, probably.

00:17:38: No, sure.

00:17:39: I mean, I think if that's moving us perhaps onto the discussion

00:17:42: around preparedness, and maybe we can talk a little bit about

00:17:45: what it takes for individual citizens, communities

00:17:49: and countries to be prepared.

00:17:51: And indeed, when it comes to other kinds of disasters,

00:17:56: we've all lived through a pandemic.

00:17:58: We're all aware of earthquakes, such as the big earthquake

00:18:04: that took Ea and Syria.

00:18:06: In these cases, one of the key things is to know how

00:18:15: to individual populations should be better prepared.

00:18:19: We have very recently done a so-called Eurobarometer,

00:18:25: so a survey of European populations

00:18:28: and how prepared they feel in terms of what to do in disasters.

00:18:34: And the results show a lot of scope for doing more.

00:18:39: Around about 49% of the European population

00:18:45: are very concerned about disasters, but don't know what to do.

00:18:51: The good news is that the European population also trusts

00:18:58: the emergency management authorities to be able to help

00:19:02: in those circumstances.

00:19:04: And therefore, we want to get down now to a more household level

00:19:10: to say, what is the understanding of the risks that might be faced

00:19:15: if you're in a place that's likely to flood,

00:19:18: if you're in an area prone to earthquakes.

00:19:22: What can you do as individuals?

00:19:24: No, but I think these are all great examples.

00:19:26: And I think which is probably very interesting for audiences,

00:19:30: what concretely it means to be prepared

00:19:33: and what kind of, let's say, solutions are out there

00:19:37: and how you are getting these solutions.

00:19:40: Is this something where you are enabling constituencies across Europe

00:19:46: and providing them with enough funding

00:19:48: so they actually buy these solutions?

00:19:50: Is there anything which, I don't know,

00:19:52: maybe there's something on stock you have already?

00:19:54: How do you think businesses in particular

00:19:58: and technology providers could help here?

00:20:01: So, thanks a lot.

00:20:02: I mean, it's not only about funding.

00:20:05: Let me not leave that impression.

00:20:06: I think one of the most important things that we do at the European Union level

00:20:09: is provide underpinning services and knowledge across the member states.

00:20:16: It's also very important when it comes to the operational response

00:20:21: that we have this emergency response coordination centre

00:20:24: right here in Brussels, 24/7, available,

00:20:27: that connects all 27 EU member states to their national emergency centres.

00:20:33: It means that we are able to provide additional support

00:20:40: from one country to another at very short notice if needed.

00:20:44: We talked earlier about the different kinds of disasters.

00:20:47: Obviously, in some situations you have some idea

00:20:53: that a weather event is coming and in others it's much more sudden.

00:20:57: So, depending on the situation, speed is of the essence

00:21:01: and coordination is of the essence.

00:21:03: So, we have in place something called ReskU,

00:21:08: so a reserve of European capacities

00:21:12: which can support member states where they don't have available immediately

00:21:18: everything they need in a large-scale disaster.

00:21:21: And this, of course, really showed its value in the pandemic

00:21:26: where we spent a lot of time moving support round the European Union

00:21:32: including the medical countermeasures that were needed

00:21:36: and the protective equipment.

00:21:38: Now, you asked specifically about business and technology

00:21:41: and of course business like any sector of society

00:21:45: needs to be aware of the risks.

00:21:48: And indeed, business we see increasingly do build in

00:21:52: risk calculations to their investment plans and their business plans.

00:21:59: And indeed, business in the climate adaptation

00:22:04: are very much a driver, I think, of moving us forward in that domain.

00:22:08: At the European Union level in our department,

00:22:12: we work mainly with the public authorities,

00:22:15: the national authorities in the first instance,

00:22:18: so that we can provide support to monitoring what's going on

00:22:25: in terms of the hazards that are out there.

00:22:27: So, floods, fires and other kind of forecasting systems.

00:22:31: We provide support to early warning systems.

00:22:35: We might talk about that later.

00:22:37: And then we also are able to mobilise this additional capacities

00:22:44: when there is a request.

00:22:45: We will never do that without being asked for assistance.

00:22:48: Okay?

00:22:49: Yes, sure.

00:22:50: And before we go into the early warning system,

00:22:54: let's say aspects of your work,

00:22:56: you mentioned several times already your capacity actually

00:23:01: to organise everything in time in a very, very speedy process as well.

00:23:06: So, what are the biggest institutional and organisational challenges

00:23:11: in disaster management?

00:23:13: I've mentioned the organisational aspects a few times already,

00:23:16: but what are the main challenges you would still see?

00:23:19: Sure.

00:23:20: Managing disaster as well is an extremely challenging business

00:23:23: and the good news is there are lots of very good professionals

00:23:26: and volunteers working around this.

00:23:28: But we all have a part to play and that is, I think,

00:23:31: one of the biggest challenges.

00:23:33: So, when a disaster actually strikes,

00:23:36: the very first response is usually a neighbourhood and a local response.

00:23:42: And that means that you as a citizen need to have an understanding of risk,

00:23:48: need to have an understanding of what to do

00:23:51: and need to have an understanding of where to find reliable information.

00:23:56: When we're in a big disaster,

00:23:59: the main challenge is, of course, getting the right kind of assistance

00:24:03: to the right places at the right time as quickly as possible.

00:24:07: And that needs organisation behind the scenes.

00:24:10: That needs coordination behind the scenes.

00:24:12: It's very easy to be overwhelmed with support.

00:24:16: It's actually the very raison d'être of the European Emergency Response Coordination Centre.

00:24:22: So, the linkages between that kind of operational emergency response

00:24:29: and how governments, our local level, are set up

00:24:34: in terms of decision making is extremely important.

00:24:38: Every single local mayor with responsibility for their local population

00:24:44: needs to be aware of what to do in the event of a disaster.

00:24:50: And that awareness begins, of course, well ahead of time.

00:24:55: So, this is back to the prevention question.

00:24:57: Where are the people in your community who might be vulnerable

00:25:02: in terms of a need to move quickly if there was a flood, for example?

00:25:07: How do you make sure that we reach people who have disabilities?

00:25:12: How do you make sure that mobile Europeans know

00:25:19: what kind of behaviour is necessary in a heat wave

00:25:23: in the middle of these extremely hot summers that we're now having?

00:25:27: So, these kind of culture and mindset issues

00:25:31: are really tricky to address in that basically it requires us all to act.

00:25:39: Now, President von der Leyen has put this issue very much

00:25:43: front and foremost for the next five years of the new European Commission.

00:25:49: And she called on the former President of Finland, President Neniesto,

00:25:55: to write a report on European preparedness and readiness.

00:26:00: And it's just come out called Safer Together.

00:26:04: It's looking at all levels of society and all levels of government,

00:26:08: which is a model that's very familiar in Finland.

00:26:12: And recommending that what we do here in Europe

00:26:17: is really put preparedness at the heart of everything that we do.

00:26:22: And President von der Leyen has announced that there will be a preparedness union

00:26:27: with the umbrella to bringing all kinds of actions together

00:26:31: to make sure that we are both adapting to the circumstances

00:26:37: and making sure that we reach all of those citizens

00:26:42: with those basic measures of understanding about the risks

00:26:46: and about what they can do.

00:26:48: Can you give us already some very good examples of early warning system?

00:26:52: So, what has successfully worked?

00:26:55: Yeah, sure. Now, I don't know whether your audience know well

00:26:59: what's in the system because early warning, I think we can all understand.

00:27:04: Early warning, of course, is where you know that there is a severe weather event,

00:27:11: for example, or volcanic eruption and take a non-climate example coming

00:27:16: that you may make sure that the appropriate action is taken

00:27:20: to either evacuate or to move people or to protect your property,

00:27:24: whatever it might be.

00:27:26: It's something that is less familiar in Europe than in other parts of the world,

00:27:30: but is, I think, more and more needed.

00:27:33: So, again, you have to have in place the systems to monitor and to forecast.

00:27:42: But you also have to have in place the link through to the actual broadcasting,

00:27:49: if you like, of warning and to the action that citizens then would take

00:27:56: as a result of such warnings.

00:27:59: So, at the European Union level, what we do is we actually run a number

00:28:03: of hazard-specific warning systems where we monitor and forecast,

00:28:08: for example, wildfires, floods and drought, the biggest areas.

00:28:13: One such system is the European Forest Fire Information System.

00:28:18: Which then will give a forecast of the wildfire danger, relative danger,

00:28:25: for up to 10 days in advance, as well as real-time information

00:28:31: on active fires in burnt areas.

00:28:33: That's one example.

00:28:34: That system is made available and is continually developed,

00:28:39: freely to all of the EU member states but also worldwide,

00:28:43: and it's particularly active during the summer.

00:28:47: Then, how does that translate to the warning that you might receive,

00:28:50: sitting where you are?

00:28:52: So, the European Union has in place a regulation,

00:28:56: so a legal obligation, to encourage the member states to put in place

00:29:03: public warning systems that use the mobile networks.

00:29:08: And therefore, you will have seen that there are a number of these

00:29:15: that are perhaps more and more well-known here in Belgium.

00:29:18: It's called Be Alert.

00:29:20: In France, a similar system launched back in 2022,

00:29:27: which goes direct to mobile networks.

00:29:29: In Germany, we have NINAH.

00:29:31: In some countries, these systems are app-based,

00:29:35: and in some, they go directly through the telephone networks.

00:29:39: So, if you don't know what your alert system is, where you are,

00:29:43: for sure now is the time to find out.

00:29:46: We have a common emergency number, as you know, 112,

00:29:49: and all of that is built up together to ensure early warning.

00:29:56: I mentioned earlier, household preparedness,

00:29:59: and I just want to put in a few basic facts here from our recent survey.

00:30:07: Only 20% of European households have a battery-powered radio.

00:30:15: Now, why do I mention that in this context?

00:30:18: We're talking about technology, and perhaps we can go on to talk more

00:30:22: about how the technology is helping us on early warning,

00:30:25: but in the end, it's the way that individuals are ready at the household level,

00:30:30: which will determine how quickly they get the warning and how quickly they can act.

00:30:35: So, yes, we do need to be ready for critical infrastructure overwhelm or failure.

00:30:42: I think you talked about that in previous episodes,

00:30:44: and that is as simple as making sure you have flashlights, water, basic food stocks,

00:30:53: basic communication methods that are not internet-dependent available.

00:30:58: Yeah, just to maybe to wrap up, if you look at everything that is in place,

00:31:04: what are the main challenges, the main obstacles,

00:31:09: and what kind of role policy makers can play to close these gaps?

00:31:14: On the one hand, on the other hand, also coming back to businesses,

00:31:19: what is the broader economy, and also entrepreneurs,

00:31:23: what kind of roles could they play?

00:31:25: So, I think you've touched on some of the obstacles already.

00:31:30: I think one of the biggest issues is that the pace of the extreme weather disasters

00:31:39: is outstripping our ability to be ready in terms of what's needed to respond to a disaster,

00:31:46: but also just simply the investment required to both recover and to do better.

00:31:55: The biggest obstacle in a sense is that we need to get the whole system working together,

00:32:01: the whole of society, the whole system,

00:32:03: and that means that it's no good being ready and prepared in one place for one kind of disaster,

00:32:11: but we need to be aware of our full set of risks

00:32:19: and of all the potential knock-on effects that can have.

00:32:23: So, money is needed. Money is needed at all levels.

00:32:27: Money is needed to invest in systems, to invest in capacities,

00:32:33: to make sure that people are able to take individual measures as well.

00:32:39: And businesses and economies, I think, are a key part of that

00:32:44: because, as I mentioned earlier, business is so very heavily impacted

00:32:50: when a disaster does strike that the case for investment is very clear.

00:32:54: More specifically, we also need to look at certain kinds of supply.

00:32:59: chains and how they are either needed to be scaled up or can be disrupted in the case of a major event.

00:33:05: We certainly need to look at the issues around what you stockpile in cases of major disasters.

00:33:12: And then last but not least, of course, it's important that much of our infrastructure is,

00:33:18: of course, privately run and the knowledge is held also with some of these big operators

00:33:25: that is very essential to link up to the government authorities. Lastly, I just come back to the losses.

00:33:33: At the moment, we have a bigger private insurance market in the European Union,

00:33:38: but of course, the insurance business is a business. And as the costs of climate extreme

00:33:45: disasters go up, we will find more and more uninsurable businesses and housing. And it's

00:33:52: really important that we address those issues too. Julia, thank you so much. I think we could go on

00:33:56: and on. But I think this is a very good first overview around the topic. I'm sure the people

00:34:03: will find you. If there are more questions, they certainly probably can look at your home page as

00:34:09: well for more basic information, more in-depth studies as well. Julia, thank you so much for

00:34:15: this conversation. Thanks a lot. The fix. So in today's session, I have Karsten Bringschulder

00:34:25: with me. He's CEO from Dryad. And he's also serial entrepreneur. And I think it's a perfect

00:34:30: opportunity to ask Karsten why he choose this specific topic, because the overarching thesis,

00:34:37: as you know, is that climate resilience and adaptation needs much more attention, much more

00:34:42: entrepreneurial activities and also much more investors money. Karsten, great that you're with

00:34:48: us. Thank you for having me. So maybe as a starting point, you want to introduce us a bit to yourself,

00:34:54: your background and also why you are the CEO of Dryad and what Dryad does. Yeah, I'm CEO of Dryad

00:35:00: Networks. It's a German company in the climate sector. And my background is telecommunications.

00:35:07: I've spent 25 years in serving the telecommunications industry with three startups that I started,

00:35:13: scaled and exited. I lived for 12 years in London, ran a public company there,

00:35:20: sold one of my companies to Blackberry with device management and another one to Twilio.

00:35:27: And then I came back to Germany. And that was the time when basically the Fridays for Future

00:35:34: movement really was at its peak, maybe, and a lot of talk about climate change. And in 2018,

00:35:41: we had lots of fires on the news for me for the first time visible that this is a massive problem

00:35:47: with wildfires globally. At the same time, my daughter was actually going on the street and

00:35:53: protesting and all of that combined literally flipped the switch. I felt like I really have to

00:35:59: do something more useful than help to build the next smartphone. So now we're building Dryad

00:36:05: Networks is basically about creating telecommunications and IoT technology to help prevent wildfires

00:36:13: and in general to help in the adaptation for climate change and of course also to mitigate

00:36:18: one of our biggest threats today. So maybe as a starter, can you just give us a primer on what

00:36:23: does it mean to prevent wildfires? So what exactly is the approach? Well, I mean, there are numerous

00:36:31: ways how we can and have to tame this beast of wildfires, which is getting worse and worse with

00:36:36: climate change. We have more droughts during the summer. In the winter, we've got more rain

00:36:41: leading to more buildup of fuel, which then burns viciously during summer months. And so we have

00:36:49: to cut that cycle. And there are various things you can do to reduce the threat of wildfires. You

00:36:55: can reduce the fuel load with prescribed burnings, for example, or having goats that eat the dry

00:37:00: grass and leaves and then twigs. And you can also improve on the way that fires are being detected

00:37:09: because that's what we're doing with Dryad. We want to help to reduce the time from ignition when

00:37:15: the fire starts till the time when the fire fighters arrive at the scene and extinguish the fire.

00:37:21: Because the thesis is that the faster you detect the fire, the earlier you extinguish it, the easier

00:37:28: it is to put it out. And on the other hand, if you wait too long, if it takes too long to detect

00:37:35: the fire, the fire might be too large to be under control and to be able to extinguish. So time is

00:37:43: really off the essence. And what Dryad is doing is trying to reduce the time from ignition to

00:37:49: detection to response as much as possible. Right. So in simple words, once you see kind of smoke

00:37:56: rising over wood, it's too late, right? So you need to be before that point in time and you do that

00:38:04: with a clever sensor network that, let's say, smells different gases. Is that right? Yeah. So

00:38:10: there are different approaches how you can detect the wildfire, right? You can have satellites that

00:38:14: look down from space and they've got a great overview. They can see where fires are heading to

00:38:21: and they're really good for helping coordinating evacuations or large-scale response to fires

00:38:27: that have already gone out of control. But they're not really good at detecting very small fires in

00:38:32: the early stages. Cameras is another approach. You can actually put them on top of poles and

00:38:39: they can overlook the tree canopy and they're basically going to look for smoke plumes rising

00:38:43: above the canopy. But they cannot see what's happening under the canopy. So the fires have to,

00:38:49: before a camera can detect it, have to be developed already quite far. And that means the fire is

00:38:55: already quite large at that time of detection, meaning when the firefighters arrive, it may

00:39:00: already be out of control. And our approach with Dryad is actually to create digital noses like

00:39:07: a gas sensors, AI powered gas sensors that actually smell a fire even during what's called a smoldering

00:39:16: phase. So most fires start with somebody throwing a cigarette or doing some other things that can

00:39:21: slowly cause a fire. In the first two or three hours, the fire is really on the ground, the leaves,

00:39:29: the twigs, the needles are smoldering. Eventually you'll have a fire erupting from it and then

00:39:36: it crawls up the trees and then when the tree crowns are on fire, then it's already too late.

00:39:41: And what we're trying to do with Dryad, what we are doing at Dryad with our electronic noses,

00:39:48: is to detect fires in the very early stages within minutes from ignition. And that gives this

00:39:53: critical time advantage to the firefighters to get to the scene, extinguish the fire while it's

00:39:59: still controllable and why it can be still put out before it spreads out of control.

00:40:04: Okay, so let's say beyond the kind of the economics or what the coast of it is,

00:40:09: there was maintenance units, so we can cover that later. I guess like setting up a smart sensor

00:40:15: network in a larger area has some like operational difficulties. So you don't have the power there,

00:40:22: right? Number one, you don't have Wi-Fi enabled forests, at least in the countries I know.

00:40:29: So how you approach these technical challenges? I mean, there are numerous technical challenges

00:40:35: and you identified some of them, which are absolutely right. There is no power plug in the

00:40:42: forest, so you have to work off-grid with the entire network infrastructure and the sensors

00:40:48: themselves. Speaking of network infrastructure, in most large-scale forests, there is no mobile

00:40:53: network coverage, so you cannot use LTE to take data out of the forest. And then of course,

00:41:01: it's extremely humid, which is not good for electronics, so you have those operations,

00:41:06: technical challenges too. So we had to overcome a lot of those. So if I start on the sensor side,

00:41:12: our sensors are low cost, they're solar powered, and they use supercapacitors for energy storage,

00:41:19: because we didn't want to bring lithium-ion devices, batteries into the forest and actually

00:41:24: cause fires. Instead, we're using solar power, and it does work under the tree canopy even in

00:41:30: the shade, because we've got very efficient electronics that we've built and they are solar

00:41:36: powered and store energy in supercapacitors. So that was a big challenge that we had to overcome.

00:41:43: And the second thing is we had to run artificial intelligence to actually detect the smoke

00:41:50: patterns, like the smell of a fire. And since our devices and the network we're using is very

00:41:57: narrowband, we had to push the compute to the edge. So we're actually running the machine learning

00:42:04: engine on the sensor, on the IoT devices, which are very low-powered devices, don't have a lot of

00:42:10: compute power. So we're doing distributed AI, embedded in low-powered inexpensive sensors.

00:42:16: That was a big challenge we had to solve. And then the last one, which is big, is that we had to

00:42:22: create a network infrastructure, because we can't rely on 4G and a TE in the forest,

00:42:27: meaning we had to build our own network infrastructure. And again, this network

00:42:32: infrastructure has to be solar powered, because there's no power plug, has to be low-cost,

00:42:37: large-scale, it has to last for a long time under very harsh conditions. So we created sensors

00:42:44: that can smell a fire in very early stages with AI. But then we also built gateways and a mesh network

00:42:52: that's again solar powered, embedded in the forest to create a network infrastructure for the

00:42:57: sensors to utilize and then send data to the cloud. So these were big challenges that took us about

00:43:03: four years to overcome. And now we have a product that's ready to scale, fully industrialized,

00:43:09: and we're scaling. To get a better perspective, so how much sensors devices you need per whatever,

00:43:16: forest, square kilometer, I don't know how you measure it? Yeah, I mean, it basically depends

00:43:23: on what you want to achieve. We are focusing on detecting human-induced fires. That means

00:43:30: arson, reckless behavior, technical faults, and accidents. And that's in most countries responsible

00:43:36: about 85% of the fires are human-induced and those we want to prevent. The remainder is lightning,

00:43:43: which can of course happen anywhere in the forest. But since we're focused on

00:43:48: preventing human-induced fires, we typically place our sensors in areas where there is human

00:43:55: activity. So along roads, along hiking paths, along power lines, along train lines around villages,

00:44:01: because that's where 85% of the fires are starting. And that means if you take a large area,

00:44:07: you don't need to put a sensor into every hectare of the forest where nobody ever sets a foot.

00:44:14: Nobody will start a fire accidentally or intentionally. So in most areas, which is what's

00:44:22: called the wildland-urban interface, where we are focusing on the area where humans intersect

00:44:27: with nature, we want to put into those high-risk, high-value areas about one sensor per hectare.

00:44:33: But that if you take a large forest, it's maybe only 10% of the area. So in about 10% of the area,

00:44:40: we need about one sensor per hectare. And can you give our listeners just like a

00:44:47: ballpark figure of what investment that is? A sensor we're selling for about 100 US dollars

00:44:54: right now, 90 Euro. So it's really low cost. And that is absolutely essential because we

00:45:01: will need for our system to work a very large number of those devices to be attached to trees,

00:45:06: every football field roughly, if you look at an area. So we need lots of sensors, meaning that

00:45:13: the system cost has to be low. We've designed our sensors to be able to sell them profitably

00:45:20: at this low cost, despite being manufactured in Germany, actually.

00:45:23: Okay. So I understood that sounds like a reasonable investment for the ROI that can be

00:45:33: achieved with a solution like that. Could you elaborate on that a little bit? So how are you

00:45:38: kind of selling to your customers? How are you explaining that this investment is worth it?

00:45:43: Yeah, our customers are divided into three groups. We do sell it to the private forestry

00:45:50: sector, which is your pulp and paper and timber industry in general, that we are the ROI. And

00:45:58: the value proposition is of course that we protect the assets because a fire is damaging

00:46:04: entirely the asset, the trees that the timber companies are building for 30, 40 years.

00:46:10: And within a few days, all of that investment is gone. So the installation of our sensors reducing

00:46:16: risk to lose the entire asset is a little bit like an insurance policy, except that it actually

00:46:23: prevents the damages. And the second customer group is the governments and the municipalities.

00:46:32: Here, the value proposition is actually avoiding damage and public safety. And of course, there

00:46:38: is a budget for public safety in the form of firefighters and police already. And we fall

00:46:44: into that budget. We're basically reducing the cost of firefighting by detecting fires so early

00:46:50: that they can be put out with very little effort rather than requiring thousands of firefighters

00:46:56: to fight a big fire. So the ROI here is in cost reduction by early detection or ultra-lady

00:47:03: detection. And the last group is utilities, which comprises of power line operators and railroad

00:47:09: operators. And here it's on one hand protecting the assets from incoming fires, but maybe more

00:47:15: importantly also preventing liabilities because if a power line falls, it can cause a fire.

00:47:23: And that can lead to very high consequential damages and liabilities arising out of that

00:47:31: for the power line operator, for example. So here the value proposition is reduction of liability.

00:47:37: So theoretically, it all sounds like a no-brainer. But in reality, I know from other examples that

00:47:44: a lot of these customer groups might not instantly get it, have the budget, have the regulation in

00:47:50: place, have the pocket in place to spend money on the provincial part of stuff. So how mature is

00:47:57: the market there? Do you municipalities know kind of which form they need to fill out to get the

00:48:03: budget to buy a solution from you? Or is there more education, more discussion, new regulation needed?

00:48:09: I don't think regulation is needed. But of course, the market needs to be educated about new forms.

00:48:16: And what we're doing is really pioneering a different alternative. And we think better form

00:48:21: of detection, which will result in these reductions in budgets required to fight fires that go out

00:48:31: of control. So there is a lot of education that we have to do and that we are doing. Explain to

00:48:37: our customers how our system is reducing their expenditure or their liabilities. And then the

00:48:43: second aspect is, of course, introducing a new kind of way of doing things requires people to get

00:48:51: convinced that it actually does work. And that means we need to go through a quite lengthy

00:48:57: sales cycle of sometimes nine to 12 months from initial contact to presentations to

00:49:03: pilots to then get the customers to actually eventually buy into large deployments. And that

00:49:11: is a stony path. But in the end, pays off because our contracts are really long term.

00:49:16: Typically, our systems are designed to run for 10 to 15 years after installation. So

00:49:22: it takes a long time to sell. But once we've sold, we've got loyal customers.

00:49:26: Would you personally say that, let's say, that the tipping point has been reached that

00:49:32: people get the idea and the concept and that something like that is needed on a broader scale?

00:49:38: Or are you still selling to, let's say, the early adopter market, a small group that is,

00:49:44: for whatever reason, ahead of the curve? I think we are at the tipping point of that.

00:49:50: In the last two years, we had to invest a lot into maturing our product and also the communication

00:49:58: and the training into our channel because we're predominantly selling through resellers. We now

00:50:05: have 20 resellers in different countries of the world that are locally representing dryad and

00:50:11: selling our solution to the various stakeholders and customers and building that channel network

00:50:19: and educating them and educating also the market took some time while at the same time, we still

00:50:26: had to mature our product to have a real product market fit. And we've been through a very

00:50:33: difficult phase over the last two years where it felt like you're walking in mud,

00:50:39: but now we're coming out of it. And we are now seeing the first few large-scale contracts.

00:50:46: We've just signed two contracts, one in targeting the government in Thailand, where we will this year

00:50:53: manufacture and deploy 50,000 sensors and deploy in the forests of Thailand. And then another contract

00:51:01: where in South Africa, the timber industry will adopt about 50,000 sensors as well to protect

00:51:11: the assets from burning effectively. And that means we're seeing real traction now,

00:51:15: not just pilots anymore. Right. Maybe a zimi political question. So we see, for example,

00:51:21: now with the Trump administration that ESG as a topic suddenly is banned in kind of their system.

00:51:30: But on the other hand, we just had that massive fire went around LA, which I don't know what the

00:51:37: numbers will be, right, but might be 50 billion plus damages at the end of the day. So there would

00:51:42: be a very clear commercial reason. And also you touched on insurances before in a sentence.

00:51:47: So insurances might at the end of the day decide if you get a permit to build something close to

00:51:53: a forest or not. And then you really have to do something. So how you look at that discussion

00:51:57: that like heated is ESG tech woke and needs to go away under conservative governments versus

00:52:05: the the the hopefully growing understanding that these provincial technologies are neither green

00:52:13: nor conservative, but just save money and lives at the end of the day. I think the decision

00:52:19: even before these radical changes that we're seeing now in the communication landscapes

00:52:26: of this world, even before these changes, the purchasing decision for a product was not ESG

00:52:34: based. The purchasing decisions were purely commercial. And that means reduction in risk,

00:52:42: reduction in cost of disaster management. That that's the commercial driver for

00:52:51: for our customers to purchase and deploy our systems. It was not ESG before, and it certainly

00:52:58: won't be moving forward. It may be under the ESG green umbrella, but actually the the budgets

00:53:05: are coming out of very financially driven, different motivations.

00:53:11: Do you see like a future near future or long term future where let's say to get a fire police

00:53:19: for a forest very simplified requires to have a system in place? Because if you look at

00:53:26: like the building sector, commercial race, etc. It wouldn't be possible to even get a permit to

00:53:32: to build a commercial building of a certain size without a very sophisticated fire protection system.

00:53:39: Well, that's a good question. That's going back to the initial question you had about

00:53:44: changes in regulation required. Of course, it is with increasing threat from the forest to

00:53:52: communities. It may be that with climate change accelerating and multiplying this threat,

00:53:59: that regulation in certain regions will be put in place that fire detection systems become

00:54:08: mandatory for commercial forests at least to operate. I've not seen any initiative yet. I've

00:54:15: talked about it, but I haven't seen regulation coming into force or being prepared at this stage.

00:54:22: It would make sense, but I've not seen that yet. Okay. Coming back to your story as a founder.

00:54:30: So you said at the beginning you came out of the telecom sector. So you are an expert in

00:54:37: network devices and everything that comes with that, but you choose for intrinsic motivation

00:54:42: to do the next company in this specific field here. Do you see if you look at your peer group,

00:54:49: if you look at other entrepreneurs, if you go to a specialized industry event where you see

00:54:54: companies doing some similar, do you see a growing school of entrepreneurs that did

00:55:03: traditional stuff before and that are now actively going into this domain with maybe a

00:55:09: similar motivation than the one you have? Well, I've certainly met a lot of peers that

00:55:14: think the same way that I did and still do and will continue to do that. It's not just enough

00:55:22: to make profit. You also need to do something useful and not just useful for yourself, but useful

00:55:28: for humanity. Businesses should not be just made for profit. Of course, they need to be made for

00:55:35: profit, but the concept of impact for profit, I still believe in it and continue to believe in it.

00:55:41: And I see a lot of entrepreneurs in that direction. So I do believe it's a very good concept and it's

00:55:49: the right way, despite the distraction that we're seeing on social media and coming from the US

00:55:55: in particular right now. Right. And maybe my last question would be so you financed your company with

00:56:01: a couple of public, but also several private investors, so Business Angels, VC, etc. Maybe

00:56:08: you can elaborate a little bit on that. Do you see that there is enough money available in the

00:56:13: market for climate resilience adaptation topics like you're doing or is there still an underdeveloped

00:56:19: segment? Well, we've raised about 20 million so far from venture capital and another 5 million

00:56:27: from grants that helped us with the R&G and continues to help us with R&G in future projects.

00:56:35: So is there money available for climate adaptation technologies and companies like Dryad?

00:56:43: Absolutely there is, but not necessarily driven by impact, mostly driven by

00:56:49: bad profits. And the understanding that climate change will and is already

00:56:57: creating a massive financial problem arising out of those disasters that we're seeing more and more

00:57:04: of and that resilience against those disasters and mitigation technologies like Dryad is developing

00:57:14: will have a huge market potential and we see investing to huge market potential that that's

00:57:19: currently untapped or where disruption can happen. And certainly there is a lot of change going to

00:57:25: happen in many parts of our economy and in the world in general that opens up a lot of business

00:57:32: opportunities for adaptation. So I don't see that there will be a slowdown moving forward.

00:57:37: In fact, I'll see this to become a mainstream type of market rather than one that may be

00:57:47: falling the way as ESG is at the moment. Right, right. Okay, okay. So is there any last message

00:57:55: you want to give to kind of our listeners? Well, in general, impact for profit is the way to go.

00:58:00: I fully wholeheartedly believe into it. And in particular, climate resilience is a huge untapped

00:58:09: area that the changes that we're going to see in the next 20, 50 years will be so fundamental to

00:58:15: all aspects of society and business that will open up a huge opportunity for entrepreneurs to

00:58:23: come up with innovative solutions. So it's definitely the right way to go. And the last word, I would

00:58:28: say it's the most satisfying thing I've done in my whole life to build an impact for profit

00:58:32: because you actually know why you're doing things and not just for money. Excellent last words.

00:58:38: Thanks a lot, Karsten. And best of luck with your venture. Thank you for having me here. Bye. Bye.

00:58:44: Key learnings. Nico, another episode, another topic. How was your last discussion?

00:58:55: It was really, really interesting because I talked to Karsten from a company called Dryad.

00:59:03: And what they do is, yeah, early protection of wildfires. And it's not just starting there.

00:59:10: They are now after we recorded the session, they also demonstrated automatic drone based

00:59:17: solution where if the sensors on the ground kind of smell a fire when it starts, the drone goes

00:59:24: there automatically and creates aerial images and videos of what is happening. So that gives the

00:59:31: first responders much more also visual data to decide what to do. And they won't stop there.

00:59:38: So the next step, of course, is that if you take the drone approach to the next level, you could

00:59:43: also imagine, let's say a bit a larger drone, that also has the capability to extinguish a fire. So

00:59:49: then you would have a full 360 degree solution. Right. But they detect the fire through smelling

00:59:57: and not through visual detection? Yes. So you have these sensors on the ground that are extremely

01:00:04: need low power and create a mesh network in the woods because, yeah, you don't have wireless

01:00:11: LAN and internet there. And these gas detection sensors are, yeah, we can literally smell a fire

01:00:21: when it starts. And this is the trick, you have to get ahead of the curve.

01:00:25: As soon as the fire spreads to a size that a spotter can see it from a distance, this is

01:00:31: the status quo currently, it's much more difficult to contain. Right. So it's an absolutely

01:00:39: beautiful solution. It makes total sense. So I really cross my fingers that this

01:00:43: startup is successful and this will be scaled up globally. So from a technical point of view,

01:00:49: they can already do it. They are improving their innovations, obviously, as well over time.

01:00:54: But do they already have a business model? Yes, they have. They have because, you know,

01:00:59: a fire in a piece of wood is expensive, definitely. And so they have both public and

01:01:08: private customers that use that. And it's also pretty international. So I think

01:01:12: one of the recent projects is somewhere in Malaysia or something. So again, I think beautiful

01:01:17: innovation, by the way, out of Eberswalde, a small town in Brandenburg, close to Berlin.

01:01:23: So good to see that also something is not happening just in the big cities in Europe,

01:01:27: but also in the more rural areas. So I'm really thrilled and I wish, yeah, best of luck to

01:01:33: the solution skills, because it's definitely something that helps us all. Wonderful. I mean,

01:01:39: I think this solution really fits to what the European Commission is actually looking for.

01:01:45: And I have talked to Julia Steerd-Davidts and her role is to be a strategic advisor

01:01:51: to the Director General of the European Civil Protection and Humanitarian Aid Operations.

01:01:55: So this is the institutions within the European Union, also in short echo,

01:02:02: which is dealing with disaster prevention, detection monitoring, etc. And so the company

01:02:13: you have been talking to is exactly providing these kind of solutions the European Commission is

01:02:17: looking for. So the EU's approach to disaster management has evolved. This was one of my

01:02:25: takeaways of my discussion. It has evolved over the last past decades as the EU has been shifting

01:02:32: now more towards prevention and resilience rather than only responding to crisis. So this

01:02:39: really goes hand in hand, the crisis response, but also the prevention and the resilience. And I

01:02:45: think the technology you just talked about is really doing both, particularly if they're

01:02:49: extinguishing fire in the future. So they also do the direct responding to that. And the EU has

01:02:57: a so-called civil protection mechanism that helps to coordinate these disaster responses and provides

01:03:03: support when the national systems are overwhelmed. So the European Union is giving additional

01:03:11: support to the EU member states and allows shared resources, shared experiences, expertise, etc.

01:03:21: So for the future, the plan is to strengthen also disaster preparedness at the national and

01:03:31: also at the EU level, and also enhancing early warning systems and forecasting capabilities,

01:03:39: where again, these kind of solutions you just described will find the role in the future.

01:03:44: And of course, the EU is continuing policy development to integrate climate change

01:03:49: adaption into disaster management strategies. We have had disaster management strategies in

01:03:55: the past for all sorts of other reasons, but climate change adaption is one of the main topics for

01:04:01: the next couple of years and decades to come. So yeah, so I think we have had a pretty good

01:04:08: episode here with both the policy level, but also with the direct solutions.

01:04:15: And maybe if I can add that, if you look at what's currently happening in the US,

01:04:20: that a lot of the government agencies that are working on disaster preparedness and response

01:04:28: and whatever an international cooperation, the budgets are being cut. So I think, again,

01:04:35: this is a point where under the umbrella of European resilience, we are facing a very,

01:04:42: very interesting business opportunity also to develop these technologies out of the European

01:04:48: ecosystem and deploy them worldwide, because the world definitely needs it, right? And if the US

01:04:54: tech ecosystem for whatever stupid reason decides that this is no longer an important part,

01:05:00: it is an important part and there is money to be made. So I'm really happy that we see a growing

01:05:08: ecosystem here. And so both for investors and entrepreneurs, that's definitely a space to

01:05:12: look into. Right. Let's look forward to the next episode. Thank you so much. And very much

01:05:18: looking forward to meet you again in a couple of weeks, Nico. Always a pleasure. Bye-bye.

01:05:23: All right. Bye. Thank you for tuning in to Heat Beyond 1.5. We hope you'll join us again next

01:05:29: time. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share the podcast to help us spread

01:05:35: the word. This podcast is produced by PT1 and DWR Eco. For more information, visit www.heat.vc.

01:05:52: [BLANK_AUDIO]